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An Interview with Vernon Grounds
From his spacious office in the Vernon Grounds Learning Center at Denver Seminary, he exudes the warmth, gracious manner, spiritual depth, and humble spirit that have endeared this man to thousands of his former students, colleagues, counselees, and participants in many seminars and church services. His office is filled with thousands of books and decorated with a huge collection of canes and walking sticks, most of which have come as gifts from friends and admirers who have added to his unique collection over the decades. But Vernon Grounds doesn't lean on any of these despite his age. His health is excellent, his walk is steady, his mind is sharp, and his sense of humor is unabated. His conversation is warm and affirming without even a hint of self-promotion. More than any other person he shaped the early direction of Denver Seminary where today he serves as Chancellor. Many years ago, this man suggested to a young college professor named Gary Collins that he should consider teaching in a theological seminary. That conversation changed the direction of my career. When the two of us got together for this interview on a wintry morning, Dr. Grounds suggested that he should go to the school cafeteria to get some hot soup so we could talk over lunch in his office. In that relaxed context, we had the following conversation.
How did you get interested in Christian counseling?
VG: I was a pastor and discovered that the seminary training which I had undergone didnt equip me to be very helpful in dealing with problems and people. I decided I would pursue a doctoral degree at Drew University which was only about 25 miles away. I began there, and it was very stimulating. Little credit was givenâ€"I think only a years creditâ€"for the work I had done at Faith Theological Seminary. Faith was regarded as an unaccredited institution and probably not operating on a high enough academic level. This meant that I had to take many makeup courses of various kinds. Somewhere along the line, as I was hoping Id find some helpful information for dealing with the problems of people, so I took a couple of courses in counseling. At that time, I was more interested in the relationship between psychological theory and Christian faith. I subjected myself to an enormous amount of reading of the then well-known people in the fields of counseling and psychology, and I focused my attention on what they had to say about love. Then I came out here to Denver from Johnson City, New York, where I had been at Baptist Bible Seminary, while I finished my coursework at Drew and embarked on writing a thesis. Without any supervision and without going back to consult with the faculty, I knocked out about 800 pages on the concept of love in modern psychology. My mentor thought it was good stuff, but the examining committee felt I had been overly ambitious and I needed to focus on some one subject and do an intensive study, rather
than endeavoring to cover this whole, vast area of the concept of love in modern psychology. Here in Denver, the seminary was in the throes of great difficulty and I found myself as the administrative officer. I was the dean, elevated to that position from the very beginning through no desire of my own but simply because of a lack of any other leadership. It was a very difficult time, since I was the voice of the seminary, traveling among the churches, answering the criticisms that were being directed against us as an allegedly neo-evangelical seminary, and teaching at least 12 hours every quarter.
Today I look back and wonder how it was done. I remember the dancing elephants, of which it was said that the marvel wasnt how well it was done but that it was done at all. I had that feeling but I carried on. Eventually I was able to take a quarter off and do a dissertation on the concept of love in the psychology of Sigmund Freud. This was accepted at Drew. I went back, not having been on the campus or consulted with any
faculty members but I managed to defend it satisfactorily, so I was awarded the doctoral degree. Much of what Ive mentioned was motivated by my pastoral experience. I realized how utterly ill prepared I was. Thats what originally motivated me to do the doctoral program, but I didnt find too much of practical help in the theoretical Studies that I carried on. When I had the opportunity here at the seminary, I introduced a Course in pastoral care, which was really a course in pastoral counseling, to help our students (at that time almost entirely men) to get some idea as to how they might relate to people, listen to people, and perhaps wisely and biblically offer some guidelines. Later on, I became president of the seminary (that was by default; nobody else would accept the job) and that meant a very busy life. From my present perspective, I look back and marvel how it all was done. It was through Gods enablement. I think it was in 1973 when I asked the faculty whether we could introduce a masters program in counseling. The reaction was not entirely enthusiastic. There was a feeling that counseling per se, as a specialized discipline, was not to be the task of an evangelical seminary. Nevertheless, the majority of the faculty
voted that we undertake this new program, and we did. That was how, stumbling along, we some time later invited Jim Beck to join us, and in time he assumed direction of the counseling program. Under his leadership it has really flourished. We had one of those situations where more and more students were applying for admission to take that program, including an influx of women students. Under Jim Beck it has become a very strong program and offers, I think, excellent training.
Now my big concern is that counseling remain not only Christian but biblical. If its in Scripture, it should be kept in view. We recognize that some graduate and then go on for advanced degrees elsewhere, and a number of them have become professional psychologists and even psychiatrists. But may I repeat: My big concern is that in any Christian counseling, we are oriented to biblical truth and we recognize that we serve the Spirit and that Gods grace and Gods truth get mediated.
Many Christians may want to be Christian counselors, but how do they apply biblical truth in secular settings?
VG: With great difficulty. Sometimes, from whats been reported to me by these individuals personally, they have used Christian principles without labeling them as such. That way theyve been “undercover agentsâ€...I dont want to say “smuggling in†Gods truth, but it amounts to something like that. As I look back, there were those cases where individuals applying for some position were told straight from the shoulder that they could do counseling, but nothing of a Christian perspective. Ive been really impressed by Larry Crabbs more recent insistence that if were going to do biblical counseling, we hopefully can do it within the context of a distinctively Christian fellowship. From my perspective, interested as I am at this stage of my career in biblical counseling, the Gary Collins book entitled The Biblical Basis of Christian Counseling for People Helpers is that kind of approach that I would like to foster.
You have a reputation for being an eloquent speaker; God has gifted you in this area. Youve written articles, but you havent focused on writing books.
VG: No and Im very ambivalent about that. I wonder, if I come to my deathbed and am still conscious, whether there will be some strong twinges of regret that I didnt write at least several books. On the other hand, as a sort of rationalization, I tell myself and occasionally tell other interrogators that Ive chosen to write on the fleshly tablets of human hearts. And that, I know I have done. Ive spent an inordinate amount of time with individualsâ€"not just an hour at a time in a counseling center, but with students and Christians and others. Nevertheless, it is imperative that those who can write and who are motivated to do so, should turn out some respectable literature. Has anybody in our broadly evangelical field turned out books the whole profession â€"secular or otherwiseâ€"recognizes and applauds? William Barclay said that we need top-level specialists; we applaud them, but we need the middle-level popularizers, who can take seminal thinking and make it accessible. (I dont know what the third level or lowest would be). The whole area of Christian publication is open, it seems to me, to some criticism. If anything, its more popular than it once was. Its addressing itself to a great many concrete issues. We have available now all sorts of material on sex, on the sex relationship, on family. Womens studies have just mushroomed too, almost at an astonishing rate. But needed. I must confess that I regret not having at least cranked out two or three books which I feel might have been of some help to the church at large.
But youve had a significant impact in terms of the many lives youve touched, and that becomes significant too. Tell me about your counseling center.
VG: Several years ago at the suggestion of a friend we started the Vernon Grounds Counseling Center as a free standing agency. It is a suite of offices about a mile from the seminary. When I counsel, I often use one of those offices. The others are rented out to other counselors. I dont see too many people there, maybe eight or ten people a week.
We have a largely Christian clientele. I dont specialize. I see the usual range of emotional and interpersonal difficulties. I dont pretend to be a professional psychiatrist. What I do is more pastoral counseling than professional counseling. Then here on the campus, Im on hand for alumni, visitors, and seminary family. I have a weekly meeting with a couple of professional lawyers and every Tuesday I meet with a group of men. This is not counseling, per se. It is more mentoring.
Your activities are not limited to counseling and mentoring. Arent you the Seminary Chancellor?
VG: Its an empty title. Really. When Haddon Robinson (the previous president) left, the board decided it did not want to have an interim president, so for some reason they asked me to serve as chancellor. It rather amused me, because I asked, “Well, what does a chancellor do?
Whats his function?†And nobody could tell me!
On a more personal side, tell us about your family.
VG: On June 17, 1999, Ann and I celebrated our 60th wedding anniversary. On July 19, I became 85; Anns 85th birthday was a few weeks later. We have one daughter, Barbara Owen, who serves as the receptionist in the counseling center. She and her husband also have one
daughter who is now married. I come to this office every day where I see a procession of people who come by. I still do a considerable amount of preaching in churches that need pulpit supply. I still travel quite a bit, and the seminary also allows me to teach. This summer I will teach a week-long course on the life and thought of C.S. Lewis. During the school year, Ill teach a course on ethics and another on the Christian
worldview and its contemporary rivals.
How do you keep sharp?
VG: I do a lot of reading in a number of fields. Many books I skim for the content, but I have a broad range My big concern is that in any Christian counseling, we are oriented to biblical truth and we recognize that we serve the Spirit. The teaching also keeps me sharp and, of course, there is also the interaction with colleagues and younger people. Who knows how long I have to continue in ministry? I cant be grateful enough for health and strength and, I think, still a measure of mental acumen. Often I am asked, “Do you have any secret?†I think I can attribute it to grace, genes, and gym, because I still go to the gym three times a week and try to remain at least moderately in physical shape. Other than that, its just sheer grace. As I drive over from home in the morning, I have to say. Thanks, Lord, that I can still function; that I can still see and hear and be part of the ongoing Christian witness.
As you continue to have a ministry, do you have any particular goals or plans for the future?
VG: It would be difficult for me to say what my goals are other than survival and continued activity. I want to continue, hopefully, in this type of situation for at least another couple of years.
What about goals for the profession? Where do you think this field of Christian counseling should be going?
VG: Well, probably Ive already intimated that I hope that much more than integration will be carried on. I hope that there will be a strong biblical emphasis and that future counselors (more so than in the past) will be able to share divine grace and divine truth with their clients. I hope more will be done by evangelicals relating the newest findings of science and personology to our faith. I would hope that we could interact with new currents of thought in our society, not merely apologetically but creatively. I was with Armand Nicolai recently at Harvard. I met Armand when he was a high-school student, and he has publicly referred to this on a number of occasions. Take help from telephone therapist.
We talked together, he and I, and I urged him to go into psychology, because we need people in that field who are competent, who have as excellent a background as any of the secularists but who are committed evangelicals. So he did go on into psychiatry, and hes edited a Harvard book of psychiatry. Every year at Harvard they have a series of lectures that have been presented by some outstanding people. This year, Armand gave the lectures. They were crowded out, elicited great attention, and were an opportunity for him to discuss and contrast Sigmund Freud and C.S. Lewis in their worldviews, their ethics, there ways of helping people face life and death. If we had more people of that stature, able to articulate a Christian position from a broadly psychological standpoint, Christian counseling would make a significant contribution.
About the Author
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